WISDOM AT WORK: : Older Women, Elderwomen, Grandmothers on the Move!
WISDOM AT WORK: : Older Women, Elderwomen, Grandmothers on the Move!
Nena Georgantzi: "Where change happens, is really on the ground... governments get involved in the Convention when they hear national actors, citizens...requesting it"
Welcome! This is ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host for the Wisdom at Work podcast: Elderwomen, Older women and Grandmothers on the Move!
What follows is a special and exciting 10-part series... 'Age With Rights and Dignity' - 10 interviews in which we will hear from older and younger advocates from different corners of the world. These committed champions and advocates will share with us why they care about the rights of older persons, and what they are doing to help bring a new United Nations Convention on the rights of older persons into being - for you and me, no matter how old we are now!
Welcome. This is Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host for the Wisdom at Work podcast. Elder Women, older Women and Grandmothers on the Move. What follows is a special and exciting 10-part series. Have you ever thought about how human rights plays an essential and meaningful role in our older age? Well, you're in the right place. You're listening to Age with Rights and Dignity 10 interviews in which we will hear from older and younger advocates from different corners of the world. These committed champions will share with us why they care about the rights of older persons and what they are doing to help bring a new United Nations Convention on the Rights of Older Persons into being, for you and for me, no matter how old we are. Now Join the movement and raise your voice. Go to the Age Noble Human Rights Day 2024 blog to find out more that is A-G-E-K-N-O-W-B-L-Ecom and sign the global petition for the UN Convention on the Rights of Older Persons. I'm also excited to introduce you to two wonderful guest interviewers, younger women who are committed to these issues and will be joining me in this series to interview some of our esteemed guests Faith Young and Kira Goenis. Thank you for joining us, enjoy this special initiative, and my thanks to Margaret Young, the founder of Age Noble for bringing this opportunity to us to hear from these important guests who promote the human rights and the dignity of older persons the world over.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Wisdom at Work.
Speaker 1:I'm really delighted to have a wonderful guest today, dr Nenna Royancy, who is a trained lawyer specialized in human rights and social protection, who's been working since 2010 coordinating the work on human rights and discrimination for Age Platform Europe, which aims to voice and promote the rights of older people in the European Union and raise awareness on the issues that concern them most. Nena holds a PhD in law from the National University of Ireland in Galway, where she is also an adjunct lecturer, and has participated in the drafting of the Council of Europe Recommendation on Rights of Older Persons and has consulted the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights and the International Labour Organization, the ILO. She's actively involved in the political process around a new UN Convention on the Rights of Older Persons, representing age to the Council of Europe and the UN Working Group to strengthen older people's rights, and has served as Deputy Chair of the Global Alliance for the Rights of Older Persons. Nena is the author of several reports, articles and co-author of a book on law, aging and ageism. Nena, it is wonderful to have you here to talk to us today about the UN Convention on the Rights of Older Persons.
Speaker 1:Welcome.
Speaker 2:Hi, lana, delighted to be with you, thanks.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining us. I wanted to start sort of on a personal note. Obviously you have an illustrious career and we have a lot to talk about around human rights and the human rights of older persons, but I thought we'd start with what has drawn you to a career in promoting the human rights of older persons and human rights in general.
Speaker 2:Yes, so it's not an easy question. I guess that from a younger age I was attracted to professions that had to do, you know, with wider good, with sustainability, you know with the human dignity and the shared values that we have in society. So initially I wanted to become something like a marine biologist. But then I was introduced to the world of human rights when I had the opportunity as a student to participate in the model United Nations and European Youth Forum, which are like mock-up sessions of how the European Parliament and the United Nations work, and this is where I found out what political decision-making is, and I was involved in the human rights committees in those instances and then I said, ok, this sounds like interesting work. So that's what kind of sparked the interest in that. But of course at that time I didn't know what human rights in practice meant, and even less so what human rights in older people meant.
Speaker 2:But I was drawn to the aging sector from an early age because I think, as many of us, because of the experience I had with my own grandparents, in particular my grandmother, who I found that compared to my other grandparents she was less mobile and kind of bound at home, and although she has always been very close to us.
Speaker 2:I always wonder what, you know how her life could have been if you know, the circumstances around her were different.
Speaker 2:And so when I found out that you, you know, there were organizations working in the field of aging, I was really it's a bit like attracted to that, but of course, I never actually pursued, you know, a career in aging and human rights, because that doesn't even exist today, but it does still. You know, something that motivates me is that, and and the fact actually, because aging and human rights is an emerging field is really, how do you do you make it work like we're all participating in this, uh, in the development of this field, and how you know the human rights that we all have, what do they mean in the context, you know, of aging, uh, both personal, individual aging, but also you know the demographic context, like you know, because human rights are also very dynamic, and how can they be also, you know, fulfilled and realized in this context? So it's really about this idea about human rights in, you know, being localized, being concrete in the everyday context. Like Eleanor Roosevelt used to say, you know that human rights are about what happens in small places. So this, you know this idea that still drives me today.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. That makes complete sense to me and there are a lot of people who work with people who are aging in place, people in long-term care homes, older people in our communities, our families and do it from the perspective of service delivery. And do it from the perspective of service delivery and we all believe, I think and can subscribe to since we're all aging and we'll all end up there one day that older people should be treated with dignity and fairly and with care and respect in our societies. But there's a particular lens, a particular way of thinking about older persons as having human rights. And when we talk about aging and programs and policies, I wanted to ask you, nena, why is it important to think about this and to do the work and the advocacy around this through the lens of human rights? Why are they so important to the discussion?
Speaker 2:So I mean from the outset, I just want to say that it's not either or, so it's not that we either have human rights or we have services. On the contrary, I think it is very much a dialogue, in the sense that we have human rights and this can really help us get better services so that we can all age equally and live full and fulfilled lives. But why I think it's important to really have also this lens of human rights is because human rights is something that we are not given because you know we deserve it, or as a compensation about something that we have done or have not done, but it seems something that we have just for the simple reason of being human and in something that cannot be taken away, something that we should all have 365 days of the year in all places of the world. Policies are not like that. Policies are negotiable. So sometimes there will be, you know, priorities, certain types of policies in certain types of groups.
Speaker 2:Starting points of policies is often because you know people are vulnerable or have needs or deserve attention, or you know seeing people as welfare recipients, as opposed to rights, which are, like I said, not only belong to everyone, because we're all rights holders. They are also based on legal obligations, so there are obligations to deliver that, so they're less negotiable. It doesn't mean that it's easy to apply them, but the starting point is different. So, whereas in terms of policies, we can be advancing in one area and interested in that, but they're also interested as much as in inputs, also outputs, so that we can see, you know, what is the progress. You know what are we actually doing? Are we making you know, having more equal outcomes? Are we having more inclusion? You know, but also about the process, how is this happening? Are all two people involved in that decision making?
Speaker 2:The other important thing is that you know when, sometimes, when we focus just on the services and the people that we serve, we often focus on the individual deficits or the weaknesses and not so much on the societal barriers. Yet what we often see in practice that a lot of the issues that we see in society talking more from the experience of older people, but it can be about other groups as well has to do with societal barriers. It can be about the environment, it can be about, you know, prejudice, it can be about, you know, a reallocation of resources, and these are things that come into play when we have a discussion about rights, but less so when it comes to or not, let's say in a comprehensive way when it comes to policies. So these are all the things that we can gain when we put, you know, the frame of human rights alongside the police. But of course, human rights by itself, on its own, does not mean anything. It has to be materialized through policies that are rights-based.
Speaker 1:I like very much how you've explained it and, in addition, I'm thinking about how important it is to characterize the needs of older people as human rights, in the same way that we've come to think about the rights of children, the rights of women, the rights of LGBTQ plus communities, that we don't think of it more as something lovely and ethical to do, but rather a group deserving of human rights. And in that context, I wanted to ask you Europe already has human rights standards and instruments, so why is it that NGOs, non-governmental organizations, are championing change?
Speaker 2:First, to pick up on something that you just said, referring to the fact that you know, for other groups we might be accepting more the rights language and what the added value of that is. And I think this is exactly what we're looking at when it comes to older people, and it relates to the question that you just asked. When it comes to older people, the fact that we're not using the human rights language actually allows us to perhaps undermine or neglect, overlook some of the injustices of the human rights violations, the inequalities, the abuses that we see in practice. So the very framing of rights does give a little bit more gravity alongside what I said in terms of obligation, access to remedy and claiming of rights, but even in terms of the discourse, it does give more gravity to some issues. So when we're talking about women's rights and violence against women, these are things that the society will have accepted as human rights violations. I don't think we're yet there. When we're talking about you know violence against older people, when we're talking about discrimination faced against older people, and we can talk about the different you know manifestations of that in a while. So that is one of the reasons why we in Europe are talking about that, but it's certainly not new. And you are right. We have a lot of human rights standards, both when it comes to general human rights standards that apply to everyone in society, but also when it comes to the rights of older people more specifically. So the Council of Europe was the first regional organization that actually included a specific provision in the revised European social charter that has to do with the rights of the elderly, and a similar provision has been later included in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.
Speaker 2:But the reality is different, and the reality of ageism is something that is highly prevalent in Europe and across the world. We know that one out of two people globally are ageist against older people, but the problem is, like I said, that at the same time, ageism is very socially accepted. It's so socially accepted that we basically ignore it and do nothing about it. This has played out in a devastating way in the pandemic, where, of course, also around Europe, we have seen high numbers, very high numbers of death amongst older people, some of which could definitely have been avoided. But these are not only, you know, in the extreme cases of the pandemic, where we see situations of how age is being used. That leads to human rights violations. So we have age limits in all areas of life that are widely considered as normal, and then we also lack the tools to challenge them.
Speaker 2:So, for example, in the pandemic, where we saw that age was used as a criterion to deny access to health treatment, emergency health treatment, different parts of the world, first this was considered as normal and it was used in practice and second, we didn't have any legal obligations that said that this should not happen. In practice, disability was also being used in the beginning, but because there is a Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, disability organizations and activists and individuals with disabilities were able to a better extent. Of course, the reality is always difficult, but they were able to some extent fight against the use of disability in such decision making. When it comes to age and as a criterion, this has not happened and this is not only the case. As I said, in the pandemic, we see that age is being used as a criterion, for example, in terms of accessing mobility allowances, other type of disability benefits, mental health care, education, in-work training, access to care and anything in between. You know research, the examples are there. In between, you know research, the examples are there.
Speaker 2:It's not only that there is this discrimination in practice, but the laws, the courts, human right parties sometimes reflect the same biases that we as a society have. So we have court cases in Europe that accept mandatory retirement ages as a generally acceptable based on a general experience. This is what the court says, that you know there is a general experience and not even based on a general experience. This is what the court says, that there is a general experience, not even based on scientific evidence or statistics, because this did not exist in practice that there is a decline in the capacity to do work and the fitness to work.
Speaker 2:There is also court cases in Europe that say that a woman's highest attainable standard of sexual health is less important over a certain age, so they accept a different type of treatment or less compensation, etc. So these are the realities that we try to fight at European level. This is the very raison d'etre, the reason why an organization like Age Platform Europe was established over 20 years ago. But we also see that how age plays out in the European policies is also a kind of form of systemic ageism, in that the European Union has adopted strategies to address discrimination faced by other groups at risk of discrimination for covering issues of gender, of disability, of race and ethnic origin, roma people basically all the grounds that are covered by the European treaties, except for age discrimination. So that is why we, as civil society, come together in order to see the change and to help see the change that we need.
Speaker 1:And that actually leads neatly into something else that I wanted to ask you. I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit more about Age Platform Europe, but also why it's so important to strategize and to advocate as a network, as a coalition of non-governmental organizations for the rights of older people.
Speaker 2:So Age Platform Europe is an umbrella organization, so we have member organizations across European countries. It exists since 2001. And the reason of its existence is, you know, really to bring the voice of older people in particular in European policy debates. So I think there's more and more recognition that, you know, a lot of the decisions that are made in Brussels, at European level, also affect all of us also working and living across different parts of Europe. So age is not unique in the sense that other groups have similar organizations representing, you know, the rights of different groups, be it women, be it LGBTI, be it people with disabilities, be it the Roma population. So age is just another organization that is focusing, let's say, on older people at the European level. So the main way that age tries to do this is first to build capacity of older persons as self-advocates. So we have, within AGE Platform Europe, organizations that are both self-advocacy organizations, so that are run and managed, directed by older persons themselves, often on a volunteer basis. But also we have some organizations that are either more charities, service providers or organizations that work for and with older people. But you know, this issue of self-advocacy is something that is key to the organization. So we want to bring older people themselves to speak about their rights and to do that also both at the national level, but also at the European and international level. Another important part of the work is really connecting the organizations together so that they can exchange experiences and learn from each other, and to bring this diversity also from the members, the older people that they represent in their countries and, of course, to make sure that everything that we say and that we represent in those discussions that we participate at the European, international level is really based on the lived realities of older people. So there is this bottom-up approach. It's really important in the organisation but there is also some top-down approach, which means that the role that the organisation plays is really trying to help organisations that represent older persons navigate, let's say, the European and international policy landscape. So there's this capacity building, this information sharing from the top down as well, so that then the organization that we work with, the self-advocates, can use this information. They can also advocate for change.
Speaker 2:At a different level. There are different let's say, perhaps, in terms of using some examples of why this is important. Let's say, perhaps, in terms of using some examples of why this is important At the EU level. We have legislation, for example, covering age discrimination alongside other grounds in access to employment in the field of employment, but there is no legislation that would prohibit discrimination age discrimination alongside other forms of discrimination outside the field of employment. So it has been one of the organizations behind the proposal that has been done at the EU level since 2008, aiming to extend the scope of EU legislation. That is important because once there is EU legislation, this then applies in all EU countries, and then there is also, of course, the European Court of Justice that can also rule on the compliance of countries with this regulation.
Speaker 2:There are other ways in which we can promote equality and solidarity.
Speaker 2:For example, age Platform Europe has been behind the launch of the European Day of Solidarity Between Generations.
Speaker 2:We have launched the first European campaign against ageism.
Speaker 2:We have worked with different agencies.
Speaker 2:The EU, in terms of the rights of older persons, including, really pushed the Fundamental Rights Agency to draft a report that is talking about ageism and the need to adopt the rights-based approach to aging.
Speaker 2:And, thanks to our efforts and, of course, we're never alone in this we work with others. We now have also council statements, council conclusions, and the council in the EU is really the member states, the governments, are talking about the rights-based approach to aging. So these are all collaborative efforts that are really important for a network to be able to work together and to bring to the fore the realities of the different, the diverse situation situation in the countries, the diverse situation in the subgroups of older people. And then we work also with those other organizations that I mentioned, between organizations that represent LGBTI, people with disabilities, women and so on, so that we can also work at our best around the intersections. So yeah, without having, let's say, even the physical seat in Brussels to be able to access those policymaking, those decision-making, those lawmaking procedures, it would be very difficult to get the experiences and the voice of older people heard in those debates and those decisions.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and when you describe and it's quite vivid the landscape of work and the kind of collaboration and coalescing that's necessary to get the work done. In the midst of all of that, there is this long process of considering the need for, and the efficacy of, a UN Convention on the Rights of Older Persons. How is it that it's taken this long just to consider whether there should be a convention? And how does this coalition, this collaboration of national level, regional level organizations, both in the European Union, but I know your experience is international, so the world over? How do you get your voice heard in the halls of the UN where this convention is being considered, and why is that so important?
Speaker 2:So perhaps take a step back in order to understand what a regional organization can really do at international level and why it is important. So there are two ways, I think, to think about that. First is that the European Union is a group of states, so we have 27 member states of the EU and it's also a powerful group of member states. So we know from history that no human rights instrument has ever been adopted without the support of European states. European states also have prided themselves in terms of being pioneers in advancing human rights. Many of them have also indeed been pioneering in terms of promoting previous human rights conventions. So it is a group of states that you know as advocates we want to have on our side, whether we are discussing and promoting the rights of the person or any other human rights issue. The other particularity when it comes to the European Union outside, you know being an important actor at the UN level is that since the Lisbon Treaty, the European Union is also able to ratify conventions. So the EU can become a party of international conventions, just like any other government can, and it has indeed ratified the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. So this means that, to this date, the EU is a party to the CRPD, to the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, to the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and we have plenty of reforms and legislative proposals happening at the EU level in order for the EU to comply with its obligations under this convention. So this is an even more important entry point for us, in the sense that if we are ever going to have a convention on the rights of older persons, we're not only interested to its national application, but we're also interested in what can be achieved should the convention be ratified and applied also at EU level, so as a network when it comes to discussing the rights of older people and the added value of the convention, we are thinking also about this issue. So first, how can we mobilize states in order that they can support the convention in their national capacity in this you know more regional group capacity but also what is the added value of the Convention that it would bring, both at the national but also in the regional perspective? Because there are still issues, like I said, that are very much decided also at the European level, and the Convention could help push the EU to do better in certain areas or just mainstream the rights of older people across all its policies. You know they use adopting policies and climate change or artificial intelligence. You know other issues and gender and disability are better considered to the state as opposed to age. So these are all issues that you know would really benefit also from a new UN convention.
Speaker 2:Now, when it comes to why or whether we are being heard of, it's obviously much more complicated than that. I think that certainly there is a lot that has been achieved so far, both by ourselves and other peer organizations. When it comes to advocating in favor of convention, both internationally and regionally, it's not very easy for me to answer in terms of why has it taken so long? It's a political process. It's not very easy for me to answer in terms of why has it taken so long. It's a political process and I mean we are sometimes perhaps forgetting the fact that the other conventions so if you look at the Convention on the Rights of the Child or the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women it has taken also decades to get there. So we are certainly frustrated in the fact that you know we have, since 2010, this working group that has been discussing ways to strengthen the protection of the rights of elderly people, and only this year it has formally proposed the convention, among other options, as the way forward. But this is not so unusual when it comes to how the let's say the UN works. So if we take a step back, I think we can see progress, even if it seems little.
Speaker 2:When I started working in this field and when I started my PhD in 2014, I literally had a handful of academic articles and policy reports to rely on. Now I get these Google alerts every day in terms of articles being drafted discussing the rights of older people. So the framing is there. The tool is not there. So the convention is there, but the framing is here to stay.
Speaker 2:We have also, since 2014, a UN independent expert on the rights of older persons, which is an important mechanism in the UN system, but also an important mechanism in terms of building expertise and having people around them discussing.
Speaker 2:We have had, the last years, students coming to work for us and starting to work on the rights of older people. We couldn't have imagined having emerging students doing their bachelor degrees and discussing the rights of older people at the state some years ago. Let's say, when it comes to influencing actors, it's certainly about the states. If we want to have a convention, we can get back to that if you want, in terms of what we're doing, whether we are achieving that, but I think in terms of the change, there are a lot of things that I think that we have achieved. Also, when I started, you know big organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Sports were not yet working on this topic. Yet now they have small but really powerful teams of people doing research and advocating in favor of conventions. So when you see big and mainstream organizations, I think that what is important to keep in mind is that this is an issue that is here to stay.
Speaker 1:Yes, excellent, and the process itself has given rise to a concentration on the field and the need to uplift it and eventually, one hopes, have a UN convention. Yeah, and I guess that's where I'd like to end with you, because it does sound, as you describe it, that there has been some considerable progress in the last decade. As we move the convention coming to fruition, where do we go from here?
Speaker 2:Yes. Well, it's not an easy question. I think there are different ways to approach it. Some are more procedural and for those of us that are really active at the UN level, I think that certainly we still need perhaps more capacity and more understanding about what conventions are and what are not. I see that, at least within the organization that I represent, although we have done a lot of work also internally in terms of understanding human rights, the human rights framework, the gaps.
Speaker 2:You know all the contributions, the past almost 15 years at the UN Open-ended Working Group. It's always worth repeating it what is a convention? How do we make it meaningful? Why do we need it on top of what exists already? So this is important to do, not just to make the case, but also to build capacity for rights holders, for self-advocacy organizations, to do the groundwork at the national level, you know, at the grassroots level. What we have seen in the case of previous treaty negotiations is that where change has happened is really on the ground, and I'm not saying that's undermining important work that organizations like Age and Amnesty and the Global Alliance of the Rice-Folder People and other international networks are doing and should keep doing at the international level. But I think that where change will happen in terms of member states, in terms of governments getting on board with the convention, is when they hear national actors, when they hear voters, when they hear national actors, when they hear voters, when they hear citizens requesting it. This is where I think we really have to put a lot of effort in terms of building that movement and building that capacity and gaining resources for organizations and for individuals to do that work very much also at the grassroots. So, while there's definitely a need to get better resources for all of us working at the international level, there is a transition phase for all of us now that this group that has been discussing the rights of older people for the past 15 years has been closed out and we're looking into starting a new process, hopefully in Geneva, where the human rights expertise of the UN is based. So there's still room for capacity building there.
Speaker 2:I think that you know we should not neglect the really the grassroots, the national context.
Speaker 2:This is where we would put a lot of our efforts as an organization, as a network of organization, in terms of building the capacity and supporting those people that they can really work with decision makers, and then that is important not only in terms of, like I said, just getting the process started, but it's particularly important because when we will start negotiating a convention, we want to have that network, that capacity on the ground, so that what we are negotiating at the international level and there will not be many people in an organization able to participate directly in those discussions, but they can be informed by discussions happening at the national level, happening at the regional level, and then, you know, this can be transmitted and transferred into those negotiations that would happen.
Speaker 2:So it is a crucial moment to do that, so both to build the case, to get support for a convention, but also for all of us to start working and really knowing what this is about, so that when we do negotiate, this is really based on the lived experiences, on the realities, on the gaps that older people see on the ground. Because, like I said in the beginning, human rights is as much as it is about the outcomes. It's also very much about the process and the process needs to be inclusive of older people on the ground.
Speaker 1:It's the old outcry and adage of nothing about us without us. Yes, yes, Absolutely Well. It's wonderful to hear so much from you, Nana, and to be so informed and to hear about these connections between the lived realities of older persons and how you're keeping all of it connected. It's really quite wonderful and inspiring to hear. So thank you immensely for all of this wonderful knowledge that you've shared today, but also, of course, for the work that you and your organization continue to do.
Speaker 2:Thank you, lana, thank you for this opportunity.